Strange P&F chart

[astrolobe]

Please check my attached P&F chart, and let me know if it should look like this. Firstly, there are multiple "o" clumns next to each other. Secondly, there are price gaps between some of the "o" and "x" columns.
I am not a P&F expert, but I believe the above items should not happen in a P&F chart.

Because my chart is a forex pair, with the quote size set to "tenth pips", I added a zero onto the box and reversal sizes, i.e., 100 x 150

[NinjaTrader_Jason]

Hello astrolobe,

Can you please enter the box and reversal values as 10 and 15. Subsequently check if the P&F chart displays as expected.

When I enter values of 100 and 150, I notice the same on my end. If I enter values of 10 and 15, I do not see multiple X or O columns next to each other nor do I see gaps in the chart.

[astrolobe]

Hello astrolobe,

Can you please enter the box and reversal values as 10 and 15. Subsequently check if the P&F chart displays as expected.

When I enter values of 100 and 150, I notice the same on my end. If I enter values of 10 and 15, I do not see multiple X or O columns next to each other nor do I see gaps in the chart.

Hi Jason,
I had made a mistake with my box and reversal size, however some of the issues still remain.
My AUDCHF example should have been 100 x 3. I mistakenly added a zero onto my reversal size, because my FX feed quotes in tenth pips. If I use a box size of 10, then my box is really only 1 pip, and I want it to be 10 full pips, hence a box size of 100.

With a setting of 100x3, the gaps seem to disappear, which is good.

However, there are still multiple X and O columns. These multiples always appear at the session breaks.
See my attachment:
Point 1 and 3 are duplicate O columns at the session break
Point 2 has only two X's in the column, which should not happen for a 3 box reversal. It should have a minimum of 3. Again this happens at the session break.

Also look carefully at the X's at point 2, they are not aligned to the previous X column.

[NinjaTrader_Jason]

Hello astrolobe,

The consecutive columns of X or O during session break lines can be as expected. Once a new session starts, it will start a new fresh column which can be the same type (X or O) as the last column of the previous session.

The first column of the new session starts with the Open price of the first 1 minute bar of that session. Subsequently all columns are build from that starting point.

As per the column with 2 X's, this can be as expected as well. You have set Box size to 100 (10 pips), which means a reversal of 3 (pips) can happen when only 2 X's are plotted.

[astrolobe]

Hello astrolobe,

The consecutive columns of X or O during session break lines can be as expected. Once a new session starts, it will start a new fresh column which can be the same type (X or O) as the last column of the previous session.

The first column of the new session starts with the Open price of the first 1 minute bar of that session. Subsequently all columns are build from that starting point.

As per the column with 2 X's, this can be as expected as well. You have set Box size to 100 (10 pips), which means a reversal of 3 (pips) can happen when only 2 X's are plotted.

Thanks for the information, the first two paragraphs I understand.

I think your third paragraph is incorrect. If my box size is 100 (10 pips), and my reversal is 3 boxes, that means a reversal can only be plotted after a change of 300 (30 pips), i.e., 3 boxes of 100 (10 pips) = 30 pips. That means with a 3 box reversal, a minimum of 3 boxes must always be plotted.

Therefore, at point 2 in my previous attachment, because price had not reversed 3 boxes, the column with the two Xs should not exist at all.It currently says there was a reversal to the upside, when in fact there was not one.

If you look at the example in the NT help, under "Bar Types", that 3 box reversal always has a minimum of 3 boxes.

Lastly, in your second paragraph, I believe it may also lead to gaps in in the P&F chart. From what I have read, there should be no gaps in a P&F chart.

[NinjaTrader_JoshP]

astrolobe,

NT PnF charts are begun afresh on every single session break. This is the case to ensure your PnF chart looks the same day in and day out. If we did not do it this way your PnF chart would look completely different today versus what you saw yesterday since your chart's starting point is generally a rolling date of just the last few days. This can indeed cause gaps between sessions.

As far as your columns with only 2 X's or O's. This can be expected to occur when it is the first column of the day. Since the first column of the day starts arbitrarily based on the first minute bar everything after that is built starting from there. The data may not necessarily start to build going up to fill 3 X's before starting to come down. If it only filled enough to generate 2 X's, but then started coming down it will start up a O column the moment it passes 3 X's worth of price levels regardless of if the X column had 3 X's or not. This is a special case for when PnF first starts since that first column is always a little special.

[astrolobe]

Josh,
Thanks for the detailed response. This explains its current behaviour.
However, I do not see how the chart will look different each day, if you did not begin afresh every single session break.

It either prints an X or O at a price level because price went there, or it does not...end of story.

If you change the start date of the chart, then the first couple of columns may look different, but after the first reversal, it should be correct, i.e., print where price goes.

Instead of starting afresh for each session break, I think it makes more sense to just continue to print from where price stopped in the previous session. If there is a gap, then you fill the gap according to PnF logic.

The whole point of a PnF chart is that time is NOT relevant, and a session break is a time issue. I have never seen this kind handling of session breaks in any of the PnF printed material.

[NinjaTrader_Jason]

Hello astrolobe,

The starting point of your chart is usually different each day. For example, you request 5 days of historical data in your chart. Tomorrow, the starting date of the chart will be different than today - it shifts one day. Because of this, today's historical data can be different than tomorrow's historical data. By starting fresh each new session, we ensure historical data does not change from day to day.

I will forward your suggestion and feedback to Development to put it on the list of future considerations of the software.

[astrolobe]

Jason,
I can see that the starting point changes every day, but the price action for the days that are on the chart are historically the same. If we were dealing with a bar chart, what you are saying is that the OHLC of a bar on say Nov 1 will change because the start date has changed, which we know does not happen.

Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying. But I do know that the price action on a specific day is what it is. How can "today's historical data can be different than tomorrow's historical data"?

If a chart starts on Oct 1, and today is Nov 1, and price prints Xs for boxes 1000, 1001, 1002, 1003, then tomorrow (Nov 2), when we look at Nov 1 data, there should still be Xs for 1000, 1001, 1002, and 1003. The next day, on Nov 2, the chart start date may now be Oct 2, but what printed on Nov 1 does not change because the start date changed. That is like saying, for a bar chart, every day your historical bars will look different. Surely this is not what you mean?

The only reason I can see why NT PnF charts behave this way is because there is some technical difficulty doing it the proper way.
Since my previous posting, I have done some more research on the matter, there are two very clear characteristics of a PnF chart:

1. they have no gaps
2. they are constructed with no regard to time.

(see The definitive Guide to Point and Figure, by Jeremy du Plessis, pg 53 and 54)

[NinjaTrader_Jason]

Hello astrolobe,

Historical data can be different since each day a new starting point is used. Because of the different starting point, historical data can be different.

For example, you request 5 days of historical data. It runs from 11-1 to today. Historical data for 11-2 will be continuous from 11-1. Tomorrow, historical data for 11-2 is not continuous from 11-1 anymore, which can result in different historical data.

Unfortunately our P&F charts are constructed based on each session.

[nawest1]

Hi, sorry for butting in on this thread but I share the concerns about the way ninja trader handles point and figure. I saw that you intend to ask Development to put the issue of the construction being based on sessions on your list of future considerations, but also looking back on much older threads these issues - and the consequences they have for usuablity, trend lines, price targets etc - have already been raised several times. I'm in the process of deciding whether to shift across to ninja trader but P&F are a major issue for me - is there realistically any chance in the near term - ie couple of months - that this issue is sorted so that we end up with (what I would call) proper P&F charts? Thanks

[NinjaTrader_Jason]

Hello nawest1,

Unfortunately I do not have any information if this will be included or when it could be included. The suggestions are on the list of future considerations of the software.