Pay $100 for "advanced" training???!!!

[Simon]

Before I say anything ...what are others feelings about this?

[mkreegar]

You'll never see me pay $100.00 to get training, from the vendor, of software I'm already paying for.

Really, this is the most nickle and dime the customers to death software that I've experienced.

I like the software, but the business practices?????

Matt

:X

[Terry Taylor]

I agree.

Terry

[cashmein]

I disagree. I just made $1K the first day with NT by just watching the videos 200 times, reading the documentation 300 times and practicing all weekend with the software until my eyes turned red. Heck I figure if I attend training maybe there will be some feature of the program that will at least maintain that rate. BTW today it has made me over $500 before the first hour.

I'm sort of seeing it this way. NT gave me a free $100 to attend training.Never being one to pass up a free meal I guess I'll be sitting down at the table.

But of course this is just my 2 cents worth!

[mkreegar]

Cashmein,

I am glad that you are doing well with NT, but your comments miss the point, in my view.

When you lease software the vendor is obligated to provide whatever information is available on how to use the product, at no additional charge. That is most of what your lease payment is for.

Instead of spending so much effort coming up with ways to charge customers for what should be included support, NT should be putting its efforts in to getting all this information on the website, so it is available to all users of NinjaTrader.

By the way Cashmein, NT DID NOT give you "a free $100 to attend training" or anything else. If you made good trades that's your accomplishment - not NT's.

As I've said before I like the NT platform. What I don't like are the unjustified charges for support.

Matt

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

NinjaTrader, LLC support, training, videos and other support resources are included in the subscription costs. Introducing advanced training has not taken anything away from what is currently offered to the NT user community as part of the service. This new service is part live trading and is optional. I respect your opinion and as always allow everyone to express it in a public fourm.I appreciate that.There is only so muchI can ecomically offer with a $50 subscription rate without increasing the price. Iam not a fan of increasing prices and therefore make this new program optional for those who see value in it and wish to pay for it.

[cashmein]

The way I look at it is if I don't take the training (for a measly $100) I will always wonder if I could have made more money by listening to someone who was an expert. If I do take the training and loose my shirt I still have only myself to blame. A subscription company has to draw the line somewhere. After all if one subscribes to Life magazine, you get a magazine in the mail. Life also offers OTHER STUFF like music CD'setc. The way I see it this is OTHER STUFF at a reasonable price.

[mkreegar]

Cashmein,

And when you buy a car you are not charged extra for the operating instructions.

And I do agree with you that if you do or don't make money - it is entirely your responsibility, which of course has nothing to do with the issue of product support.

Matt

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

And as I stated, the operating instructions and videos and live sessions are still there, will be there and have not been taken away. If you want to learn how to drive your car on the race track, you can optionally go to race school.

[mkreegar]

Ray,

Far be it from me to beat a dead horse and maybe the problem is that I just don't understand.

Here is the information that was provided by NT as to the material to be presented in session one:

Session 1 - How to use NinjaTrader

In the first session, students will learn how to operate NinjaTrader from soup to nuts. Topics covered are -

- How to navigate all aspects of the NinjaTrader user interface
- How to develop NinjaTrader strategies
- How to use Auto Chase, Auto Trail, Auto Breakeven and Simulated Stop features
- How to use the Instrument Manager
- How to use the Performance Manager
- How to use the Auto Reverse and Shadow features
- How to set up NinjaTrader

Maybe I'm wrong here, but this doesn't look like race school material to me. It looks like core operating instructions. Without useable knowledge of the information to be presented in session one there would seem to be little value in leasing NT.

I guess I can see more justification in charging for the live sessions.

Well I think I've made all the comments I need to about this particular issue.

And Ray - I do appreciate the fact that you allow uncensored discussions.

Matt

[Simon]

ninjatrader wrote:
And as I stated, the operating instructions and videos and live sessions are still there, will be there and have not been taken away. If you want to learn how to drive your car on the race track, you can optionally go to race school.
The implication is that if you want to learn the very best stuff (i.e. the really good money-making tips), then sign up for Advanced Training because it's only available there. Technically this is optional. But it's a classic case of "marketing hype for newbies" in my opinion.

Here's a thought. There is no such thing as "Advanced Training". Either you can figure out how to use NinjaTrader from the existing materials and support or you can't. Assuming that most people are capable of watching videos and emailing any remaining questions - then there is nothing else to "learn" in terms of using the software.

In which case, what we have here, is simple demand from newer traders to watch someone else trade live. Someone else that they think is more experienced and profitable than they are. That's what any person who spends $100.00 is actually hoping to get out of the deal! They want to see what Ray knows about TRADING that could help them. What he knows about NinjaTrader is secondary.

So I have a provocative question for those aspiring traders about to splash $100 - how do you know that Ray is a good or even a profitable trader? Developing software is not the same thing as trading after all.

Indeed, how do you know that paying ME $100 for just three hours of watching me trade live with NinjaTrader, won't in fact make you a whole pile more money? By popular demand, I would therefore like to offer ....

Five grand for six hours work is just too damned good to turn down ;)

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

I am not promoting thatI am teaching live trading methods, its applying NinjaTrader features in a live market environment. Maybe instead of calling it advanced training, I should just call it "more training" ???

[cashmein]

The horses feet now appear to be pointing straight up. But it's the sick looking bull that has me concernedat the moment.

[QuahTrader]

mkreegar wrote: Cashmein,

And when you buy a car you are not charged extra for the operating instructions.

Matt
When you buy a BMW or a Porsche - they offer you advanced driver training at one of their driver training schools - at your cost - they don't give it to you for free.

[mkreegar]

QuahTrader,

Is your reply supposed to be serious or is it a joke?

Let me repost the subjects being taught in session one of this "advanced course", since you apparently didn't read it.

Session 1 - How to use NinjaTrader

In the first session, students will learn how to operate NinjaTrader from soup to nuts. Topics covered are -

- How to navigate all aspects of the NinjaTrader user interface
- How to develop NinjaTrader strategies
- How to use Auto Chase, Auto Trail, Auto Breakeven and Simulated Stop features
- How to use the Instrument Manager
- How to use the Performance Manager
- How to use the Auto Reverse and Shadow features
- How to set up NinjaTrader

These are not advanced subjects; they are core use features. Without these features NT is just a simple order enty platform like IB's Trader workstation, which is free.

The only reason we lease NT is specifically to use the features to be presented in session one. Therefore, by definition, they are core features and should be free. Without these core features NT has no reason to exist.

The Porshe and BMW examples simply have no relevancy to this topic. Porshe and BMW DO NOT Charge extra for information as to the basic functions and/or features of their cars. And basic funtions are what we are discussing here.

Matt

[QuahTrader]

mkreegar wrote: QuahTrader,

The Porshe and BMW examples simply have no relevancy to this topic. Porshe and BMW DO NOT Charge extra for information as to the basic functions and/or features of their cars. And basic funtions are what we are discussing here.

Matt
IMO, this isn't about the info that is being taught - it is the manner in which it is being taught.

Yes, BMW gives you a owners manual for free - so does NT. Yes, BMW will answer any questions you have about the operation of the vehicle - even if those answer can be found in the owners manual - so does NT.

BMW does not offer you a FREE class where they spend 3 or more hours going over the functions of their car with you. Basic function or advanced functions. Neither does NT.

I guess I don't see any validity to your argument here. You are saying that all that will be taught is the operation of NT - well, you can learn that from reading the manual and/or by asking question in this forum - for FREE. If you want/need additional instruction/example giving- well, you have to pay for that. I don't see anything wrong with that.

The only problem I'd have with it is if there were some "secret" features that would only be taught to users that register for the class. But that doesn't seem to be that case at all, and I'd be very suprised if it was.

[Simon]

Agree with Matt. What is on offer is training. Not advanced training. Just training. What is on offer is what is already available for free on the web site. The itinerary confirms this. There will be no learning how to drive the Ninja car really super fast. That's just marketing hype pure and simple! Cashmein and Quah are making the naive assumption that there will be more to learn than is already covered by the free materials. Wrong!

The videos were recorded using live data and the simulator, so why would anyone pay $100 for the same thing? In fact you could argue that the videos are BETTER than live because you can pause them, think about it, etc. I'll tell you why some people will pay $100. Because aspiring traders think that Ray knows how to trade more successfully with NinjaTrader then they do. It's that simple. There is no other explanation for it.

What a naive assumption to make! How is developing software in any way connected to making money with it?

Should all training be covered in the monthly fee? Of course it should. But when a bunch of newbies start saying "oh please show us the way" then the smell of dollar signs is too great to ignore. Ray is running this course and charging $5,000 for six hours of his time, because he CAN. It's called the greedier side of capitalism caused by a lack of competition in the market.

A while ago, there was a guru (correction: a respected author!) floating around the Ninja forum called Michael Jardine aka 'Enthios'. He provided/provides a ton of free resources at his web site. He also used to provide an optional "advanced" area where he charged $300 a month without any free trial or money back guarantee. Utterly unscruplous! Enthios likewise used this argument about it being "optional". But it's always the newer and aspiring traders who think they need to sign up for "advanced" knowledge/training. It's always these folk that are preyed upon by vendors.

Ray hasn't yet slumped to the level of 'Enthios' (who also censors anything of a critical nature) but this latest fee for "advanced" training is a step in the wrong direction.

Having LLC costs doesn't justify this $100 charge either. Unless there is full disclosure of revenue and expenses for the LLC - I take it with a pinch of salt as to exactly what Ray's time is worth.

Call me a cynic if you like, but I've seen it all too many time before ...

[Simon]

QuahTrader wrote:
BMW does not offer you a FREE class where they spend 3 or more hours going over the functions of their car with you.� Basic function or advanced functions.� Neither does NT.
Yes it does. Video tutorials on the web. Already there. If you just want to see how one guy trades live with it - I'll charge you $50 to watch me for six hours. Sound fair?

[QuahTrader]

Simon wrote: Cashmein and Quah are making the naive assumption that there will be more to learn than is already covered by the free materials. Wrong!


Wow, I never even came close to saying that - in fact, I said that the "live" training probably wouldn't provide anything that you couldn't already get from the manual or through this forum.

What I'm saying is that if anyone wants/need training beyond/in a different format than either the manual or this forum - then I don't see a problem with having to pay extra for that.

[Simon]

QuahTrader wrote:
What I'm saying is that if anyone wants/need training beyond/in a different format than either the manual or this forum - then I don't see a problem with having to pay extra for that.
I have a problem with it! If I'm being told that it costs $100 then I'd expect something other than what I can find for free via the existing video tutorials. Indeed, when it's being marketed as "Advanced Training" and as learning to drive "on a race track" (Ray's words) then as a new user I might logically conclude that I was getting something unique.

Basic training should be covered in the monthly fees - period. There is no justification for this cost. If newer traders want to see how someone APPLIES NinjaTrader to their own personal trading - that is an entirely separate issue. But again, Ray is not advertising this session as how he personally trades with Ninja.

But hey, in the end, people can spend their money how they like. If someone wants to throw $100 around for no reason - good luck to them. I just don't like the business practice of hyping something that is nothing new, and then charging crazy money for it. $5,000 for six hours of his time? Gimme a break!

Jeez, I could charge half that amount and let people watch me TRADE with Ninja ...as in, real live personal trading - no simulators. But I guess I'm not an "expert" and I have nothing to sell. I'm just a trader, so who'd be interested in that?!

The only thing unusual about Lord Deux is that he still hasn't censored my arse for being so critical. I guess that's my privilege for being a version 1 beta user long before the LLC was born! Things were a wee bit different back in those days. Ray would've been kicked all over the place if he'd tried to charge this money from the original gang - many of whom are sadly no longer around.

:(

[cashmein]

Quah (or others): If you say you are a succsessful trader then I will gladly pay you $100 to watch you trade for 6 hours (3 hours each for 2 days) as long as you give some advice and explain your technique as you trade. I am quessing that you are talking about futures (emini) trading? I would also need info on what software you use (other than NT) and basically how you use it. No this is no joke. I have $100 with your name on it. Maybe we could setup a web cam or something? Not sure if that would work? What about the software that is used for the free NT training could we use that?

[QuahTrader]

Simon wrote: Basic training should be covered in the monthly fees - period. There is no justification for this cost. If newer traders want to see how someone APPLIES NinjaTrader to their own personal trading - that is an entirely separate issue. But again, Ray is not advertising this session as how he personally trades with Ninja.

But hey, in the end, people can spend their money how they like. If someone wants to throw $100 around for no reason - good luck to them.
I don't get it. This type of training doesn't sound like anything that you would need - free or not - so why do you care?

He specifically says what the training will include - and how much it will cost - it's all spelled out in black and white. You are free to buy it - or not. No one is being forced to do anything - or tricked into anything. You make it sound like there is some sort of scam going on - and it, IMO, is far from it.

This really isn't anything new in this industry. Almost any software package you can buy (trading related or not) offers training on both basic and advanced functions for a fee. I'm usually not interested in these training sessions because I can RTFM and train myself most of the time. So I choose not to pay. This is nothing new under the sun.

[mkreegar]

QuahTrader,

I guess we can all agree on at least on thing: You really don't get it!

Matt

[cashmein]

Well I was getting some value out of the discussion but since it has now reached the inevitable mode of personal criticism and gross group assumptions I will now gracefully withdraw and add yet another negative opinion about electronic forums. I used to proceed well beyond this point in other forums only to find there was no turning back. It reminds me of a black hole, ever spiraling into a void of grade school mentality, name calling and juvenile behavior. Ah, the human condition, such a sure bet.

[cody]

I am looking to use NT, to the fullest as quickly as possible. If I understood what the advanced training was/is, I wouldnt care what you charge if I made money from your lessons. Personally, $100 is nothing compared to a loss I can suffer my pushing the wrong button.

Have you considered coming to NYC, renting a hotel seminar room and teaching a classroom setting? I can help with arrangements if this is something you would consider.

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Something we would consider in the future.