Chart Trading Feedback

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Hi all,

I am soliciting feedback for NinjaTrader chart trading capabilities. Currently, we support visualization of orders and positions on a chart. We also support modification of orders on a chart. What we currently do not support is entering orders from a chart. We are trying to determine if entering orders from a chart should be implemented when and how.

What I would like to know is:

- Do you see value in placing orders directly in a chart?
- If yes, would you use this method exclusively?
- If no, why not?
- If yes, how should it be implemented? How would you see it working most affectively?

Thanks for your input.

Ray

[mikem144]

Chart trading capabilites would be useful for me only if the charts had the indicators and format which I use. Primarily range bars, stochs and kelnter bands.

[bhong]

Chart trading would be useful under the following conditions:

The chart must be scalable so that you could enter orders out side of the bounds of the current range. Currently, Idon't think I canextend the upper or lower range to place entry or exit orders.

The type of order (limit. stop, stop-limit) must be available as an election.

I assume that the same method of drag-and-drop would be used to change stops or targets.

If the issue with TT (re: the DOM) is not applicable to the use of the trading window.

There should be an "emergency kill" orders or close position button availabe so that you won't have to go to another window to exit. I'm not sureif a Reverse button is also needed.

In the same vein, perhaps a Scale in or Scale out button might also be useful.

If these conditions are met, it may be very convenient to trade through the window, and not through a DOM.

[sealclubber]

I enjoy the Ninja Trader how it is now and how it has always been continuously upgraded. I am not sure if placing orders on the charts would benefit me or if I would use placing orders that way. It sounds like a good idea, but would this increase our cost? If so then I would rather not add this feature. One thing about traders is we already have alot of cost associated with trading.



Sealclubber

[buonarotti]

Very interested in trading from charts, but haven’t had time to explore “bringing in” data on charts more than I have – very simple, I'm sure... I'mdistracted here with resolving other support issues w MBT platform & NT…

Still, love the idea of trading directly from a chart, esp if integrated w esignal, in a drag-n-drop type method… interesting if could be displayed across several timeframes (eg, on futes I run 90T/360T on YM, and use the 1’/5’ timeframes in scalp, but refer to 1800T & 13’ timeframes on wider charts….)

[Granville]

For me NT was just fine in V4. The extra bells and whistles beyond what's useful for me and my style of trading (daytrading via IB), does not add any value for me personally. For my style of trading, the way the DOM worked in V4 was better than in V5. Regarding charts; I'm watching my charts (Ensign) and enter/exit via NT DOM, keeping it simple and reliable. Watching another set of charts (would NT tick charts be synced with my Ensign tick charts?) for entering my orders would just add having to process another set of information - not very productive when daytrading. And replacing my Ensign charts with NT charts seems far away. Just my humble opinion.

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Granville,

What about NT4 DOM is better in your opinion than NT5? There are actually less bells and whistles in V5 DOM than V4. I would like to know so that I can ensure we make V5 useable to new and existing users. You are correct, it would make no sense to use both Ensign and NT charts. This is why we made NT Charts is optional for those who desire to have a complete platform for both order entry and charting.

Thanks to you and everyone who has taken the time to provide feedback.

Ray

[jbe]

It is not necessary, but yes I would absolutely trade from my charts if it were available. I would probably use it exclusively, BUT I am still going to want to go to another screen to double check orders etc....., unless that is also going to be availableto see on the chart somehow?

I would think there wouldneed to be some pre-set parameters, and then utilize a buy symbol and sell symbol with a price line/window attached? Out of my league of suggestions here, but I can tell you whether or not I like it when it is available.

I am extremely happy with the ability to see orders and adjust orders directly on my charts. That is a big plus for me! But, I still don't have the charts building properly yet on the new 5 version? It only builds bars when I am connected, and does not otherwise. I do like the look of the charts, (with a few minor suggestions) and will probably sign up for the NT charts when I see they are going to work for me, 24/7.

jbe

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

jbe wrote: But, I still don't have the charts building properly yet on the new 5 version? It only builds bars when I am connected, and does not otherwise.
jbe



This is because you need to have a broker that provides historical data or a data service like eSignal that will provide this. Most brokers do not provide historical data. If your broker does not provide historical data then NT can only collect data from your broker when you are connected. We are working on a cost affective historical data only option that will likely be available early next year.

Ray

[lightyears]

Ray, I got your request for feedback. Here's my take on the new version: The charts as they stand now are useful to me for two reasons. Since I only trade 2 days a week, the ability to play back the days that I'm not trading and sim trade them will be worth a lot. The charts are also useful for visualizing trades in retrospect...*Seeing* the entries and exits and their timing on a chart isbetter than atrading journal. As far as entering and exiting from the chart... it sounds good in theory, but I'm not sure I could trust it because every time I use a Ninja chart and change the size a few times, the program crashes. When that problem is fixed, it might be difficult to avoid accidentally entering an order when changing chart size, etc. But every great idea is met with doubters at first, so I think you should forge ahead, even if the feedback isn't positive.

Incidentally, my good friend who'sa professional day trader (for 20 years, nowat TradeStalker.com) likes the entry/ stops and one-click features of Ninja version 4 better than 5. I also prefer the one click entry, exit and stop placement of version 4. As you know, fewer clicks and mouse moves gives a day trader an advantage.

One quick question... is the NYSE Tick available on a 5 minute Ninja chart for replay? If not, could it be made available? Thanks.

[Granville]

lightyears wrote:
Incidentally, my good friend who's a professional day trader (for 20 years, now at TradeStalker.com) likes the entry/ stops and one-click features of Ninja version 4 better than 5. I also prefer the one click entry, exit and stop placement of version 4. As you know, fewer clicks and mouse moves gives a day trader an advantage.


Ray, that's my take on it as well. I guess there may be advantages with the v5 way, like if you have two or more stops etc, but I try to keep it simple in my trading so one single stop is what I need (a few years back I probably would have thought two stops could be nice). Maybe I could get used to the extra work in v5 (dragging etc), but the way it was done in v4 is much better for me. Maybe an "optional v4 mode" could be the way to go.

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Granville wrote: lightyears wrote:
Incidentally, my good friend who's a professional day trader (for 20 years, now at TradeStalker.com) likes the entry/ stops and one-click features of Ninja version 4 better than 5. I also prefer the one click entry, exit and stop placement of version 4. As you know, fewer clicks and mouse moves gives a day trader an advantage.


Ray, that's my take on it as well. I guess there may be advantages with the v5 way, like if you have two or more stops etc, but I try to keep it simple in my trading so one single stop is what I need (a few years back I probably would have thought two stops could be nice). Maybe I could get used to the extra work in v5 (dragging etc), but the way it was done in v4 is much better for me. Maybe an "optional v4 mode" could be the way to go.
Thanks for providing the feedback. With the next release I have introduced the V4 mode of being able to display only orders associated to a strategy thus allowing someone to manage multiple trades in the same market in different DOMs. Just for some background, the reason behind moving to double click was not driven by multiple stop requirements but the requirement to display all working orders and; to manage unlimited number of orders. There were painful situations where some new users did not understand that the SuperDOM would NOT display all orders.

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

lightyears wrote: every time I use a Ninja chart and change the size a few times, the program crashes.
One quick question... is the NYSE Tick available on a 5 minute Ninja chart for replay? If not, could it be made available? Thanks.

Can you reproduce this beaviour? Are you using the latest R3 version? We did have a problem with that but it was fixed several versions ago. If you can reproduce, if you don't midnd, could you provide me with the step by step instructions and email to ray@ninjatrader.com (mailto:ray@ninjatrader.com)?

NYSE Tick is availble if your provider supports its. You will have to add this instrument into your database. See Instrument Manager Help Guide.

[coolutm]

Hi all, just feedback for these.

- Do you see value in placing orders directly in a chart? -> Yes but if I'm going to use Ninja chart. currently not planning to use.


- If yes, would you use this method exclusively?


- If no, why not? -> Charting is very important to trading and it's not easy to switch the charting software for me.


- If yes, how should it be implemented? How would you see it working most affectively?


thank you,

[Casper]

For me chart trading sounds like something I would definitely use. My trading style is "place stop-buy/sell order x ticks above/below previous bar" + "place stop x ticks above/below previous bar".

Currently this type of trading involves a lot of measuring the bars on the chart, and then picking the correct numbers in the DOM. With chart trading I could totally forget this jumping back and forth, which would ease my work considerably.

HOW to implement it is more difficult. But it should be very simple, nothing fancy. I could see it be one drop-down list at the bottom of the chart to select the strategy, or possibly select the strategy though a pop-up menu to conserve chart space. Then we need a button or a pop-up menu for inserting the initial limit, or stop-limit order. Once the order is triggered the current chart trading method seems ok.

Another idea would be to have a small "sidebar" on the chart where all the needed buttons are placed. Like the drop down menu for the strategy, the "insert order" button + possibly cancel all or close position buttons. The sidebar could be hidden/revealed by some shortcut, or a small button in the corner of the chart. A little like the sidebar in the Firefox browser.

[Granville]

Thanks for your explanation Ray and for making v4-type DOM available in the next release.

Regarding the charts: If entering, managing and exiting trades by clicking in a chart could be done with extreme ease etc, I could see the use of it - the idea is brilliant - but it needs to be intuitive. Question: If I'm running tick charts (e.g. 133 tick chart) with IB feed, the bars shown on NT charts would have to look exactly the same as on my Ensign charts to be of any use (o/h/l/c) - could that possibly be achieved? (replacing Ensign for NT charts would probably not be an option, at least not for a long while).

[guy]

- Do you see value in placing orders directly in a chart?

Yes, if I could graphically place my limit entry as well as a stop and traget I would find this exceptionally useful. It would allow me toenter realistic targets and practical stops based on the current market behavoir.


- If yes, would you use this method exclusively?

Probably


- If no, why not?

Can't think of any reason why I wouldn't use this - perhaps screen real estate under certain circumstances may make it less practicle.


- If yes, how should it be implemented? How would you see it working most affectively?

When you click on a chart you should have colored lines on the chart showing where you'd place your limit, stop and target based on your parameters. (Obviously a button or click to switch between short/long.) Multiple targets, limit entries etc. would appear as multiple lines of the same color.

You can then move each line around independently to the exact price you want. Each line has a value label attached to it so you don't make any mistakes. The rest would be like DOME - i.e. one click enters the order when you're ready and you can pull it etc.

Good luck in getting this implemented if you do it. I think that it would be a great feature.

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Granville wrote: Thanks for your explanation Ray and for making v4-type DOM available in the next release.

Regarding the charts: If entering, managing and exiting trades by clicking in a chart could be done with extreme ease etc, I could see the use of it - the idea is brilliant - but it needs to be intuitive. Question: If I'm running tick charts (e.g. 133 tick chart) with IB feed, the bars shown on NT charts would have to look exactly the same as on my Ensign charts to be of any use (o/h/l/c) - could that possibly be achieved? (replacing Ensign for NT charts would probably not be an option, at least not for a long while).




I don't see any reason why the chart would look any different provided that the time session on the chart was identical. Also, this would depend if you are using Ensign with IB or another feed. If another feed, I guarantee you that the charts will look different. You only get a tick update from IB every 7/10ths of a second. If you want a pure tick chart, you will not get it from IB. A lot of data is missing.

[jbe]

I currently have DTN IQ as a data service and use the Ensign charting software. Is there a way to set up the NT charts so I canutilize DTN'shistorical data and get the charts building 24/7? That would be extremely helpful! jbe

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Sure, see the following -

http://www.ninjatrader-support.com/support_ConnectivityGuide_Dtn.htm

Ray

[Pauline K]

Dear Ray,

in general, it is easier for me to place orders directly from a chart. If it were reliable and fully functional, yes, I would use this method exclusively.

It also gives a fabulous way to review and journal my trades.

[Rob Richardson]

I thought I was going to love NT5 when I first started playing with it, but I have notgone live with NT5 yet. I still use NT4 for live trades and I have not had the chance in over a week to practice with NT5. Wondering if I will ever will convert if I only get a few infrequent practice sessions.

I loved NT5 becuase many of my trades are counter trend andI tendto scale in as price moves deeper against me. I also scale out as price moves in my favor. So the ability to set up 3 or 4 limit orders separated by a tick or two really appealed to me. The same capability is valuable in scalping situations where I could have my exit order entered before I actually got my entry order filled.

What I found as I practiced in live market trades was that I got totally confused

- how many contracts were associated with which strategy ( I some how got two strategies in one DOM)

- were there actually stops and targets for all my contracts?

- would a fulfillment of a target actually cancel that number of contracts on the stop?

I saw enough to be convinved that I could easilly and mistakenly reverse a position in some situations and in other situations leave open orders or, even worse, open positions.

Maybe its a matter of practice - that I may or not have time for. Maybe its a matter of configuring NT 5 to allow only one strategy per NT5 DOM. Canned solution would be really appreciated.

I really missed the ability to remove and add targets/stops in NT4. My fingers are traind for the NT5 point and click entry and management, but I can re-learn the NT5 double click method if necessary.

As for entering orders on charts: I would continue to use the DOMbecause I watch the market depth closely. But I do annotate my charts with my trades. My dream situation would be to have the trades I makeusing the DOM show up on the charts.

Hope that helps. Thanks for asking and I hope I can be effective with NT5 someday soon.

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Rob,

Thanks for your feedback.

The fundamental question revolves around what you want to have happen when you set up multiple limit orders ahead of entry.

a) Do you want existing stops and targets ammended?

b) Do you want a separate new bracket (stop loss/profit target) submitted at each limit orders fill price which is really just creating a new bracket.

I would rather not explain how to accomplish either option here since we are about to release a new version that has an update in this area. With the new update, there will be 3 SuperDOM modes.

DisplayOnlySelectedStrategy- Like V4, one strategy per DOM is visualized
SelectActiveStrategyOnOrderSubmission - This accomplishes option (a) above
KeepSelectedStrategyTemplateOnOrderSubmission - This accomplished option (b) above


Add/Remove targets will be brought back before the end of the year.

[tquinn]

Ray,
Will the ability to manage a single strategyin a DOM allow me to put ATI trades in one DOM and manual trades in another?

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

It will allow you to put a specific strategy in one DOM regardless if it was initiated via ATI or manually.

[Tradewell]

Ray.. Regarding the Chart trading. My partner and I looked into this about 6 months ago. He actually looked at it in depth and will post his feelings this weekend.

In the mean time look at Fipertec.com their product Dynamite Centimenter does a very good job of allowing you to trade on the chart. Even trendlines and I think penetration of moving averages and indicators can trigger an entry or exit.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for a wonderful product
Tradewell. Long Beach CA

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

FYI

http://ninjatrader.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=557&forum_id=5

[Alfred]

I believe trading from a chart could be a very good thing to implement...andfeel I would use it more than the Dome, perhaps almost exclusively. With a narrow sidebar to a chart for all Dome like options this could be screenspace efficient, and more intuitive. Plus you could trigger a trade on trendline breaks etc. I already use an NTtick chart all the time now to more accurately postion entries as targets are approached and for moving stops.

Thanks....

[John858]

Is trading from a chart going to cost me extra (TT royalties)? Isn't it the same thing as a chart's "y" axis? Also, if it doesn't cost me extra initially, and TT says it's illegal (or is covered by their patent, or whatever it's called), will I be liable?

It's a great idea, but seems like it's the same thing as the dynamic superdom, and I'd prefer not to pay the overhead.

Thanks in advance,

John

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

No it will not costyou extra.

[Alexander.Aljechin]

This is because you need to have a broker that provides historical data or a data service like eSignal that will provide this. Most brokers do not provide historical data. If your broker does not provide historical data then NT can only collect data from your broker when you are connected. We are working on a cost affective historical data only option that will likely be available early next year.

Ray


Well, written in 2005 it is now late 2006, but the historical data
option seems not to be available till now...