Zen-fire 64 bits

[MrBaffalo]

Zen-fire doesn't (actually) support 64 bits, so could you please ask and eventually provide eta or clarification on their workflow (hope you guys are closer than other to their dev team).

Thanks
Marcello

.

[NinjaTrader_Dierk]

Unfortunately there is no ETA on when ZenFire would support 64bit.

[dave1992]

Do we have an update on when Ninja will incorporate the Zen Fire 64 bit API?

[NinjaTrader_Dierk]

Unfortunately not.

[dave1992]

OK, well, do you plan to put it in before the end of beta testing?

[NinjaTrader_Dierk]

Unfortunately we don't have such plans.

[dave1992]

OK, thanks.

In the spirit of communication for the many customers who use Zen Fire, could you explain why there are no plans. It's quite difficult to understand from my point of view.

Dave

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

NinjaTrader codes directly to the underlying trading engine of Zen-Fire. This was done many years ago. This lower level API does not currently support 64-bit. The Zen-Fire API in comparison which supports 64-bit, is relatively new and would require us to re-write our Zen-Fire adapter which is about a three month project from start to finish. Our priority is to get NinjaTrader 7 out the door and we do not wish to introduce any critical projects that would delay this any further than it has already.

[dave1992]

OK, thanks for the explanation.

[justme]

what's are the benefits of 64 bit zen?

[NinjaTrader_Bertrand]

You could work with the 64 bit version of NT7, however this is unfortunately not supported currently for ZenFire as outlined earlier in this thread.

[paulg]

You could work with the 64 bit version of NT7, however this is unfortunately not supported currently for ZenFire as outlined earlier in this thread.

There is something I cannot grasp in this logic.

A good portion of us are using NT 6.5 with Zenfire and the upgrade to NT7 is the natural path.

Some the limitations of the 6.5.x as 32 bit software is the fact it locks during fast market and / or when some T&S windows are displayed, etc.. even on relatively fast PCs.
And here we're talking about feeding the software with Zenfire...

One of the feature offered by NT7 is the multithread/ multi core support.

Now most of us will be forced to use a single-thread software - the NT 7 32 bit - in order to connect with Zenfire, so does all this make sense? :confused:

Am I missing something about the benefit of NT7 in terms of reliability and speed during fast market using x64 OSes and quadcore CPUs -- even if the Zenfire (Rithmic) user with have to run NT7 under WOW64?:rolleyes:

Thank you,
Paul

[NinjaTrader_Josh]

paulg,

The Zen adapter currently does not support 64-bit. That is why you cannot connect to Zen when you are using 64-bit NT. You can still utilize 64-bit advantages in things like backtesting and optimization if you download your data in 32-bit mode and then go to 64-bit for actual testing.

[paulg]

paulg,

The Zen adapter currently does not support 64-bit. That is why you cannot connect to Zen when you are using 64-bit NT. You can still utilize 64-bit advantages in things like backtesting and optimization if you download your data in 32-bit mode and then go to 64-bit for actual testing.

Josh,
Thanks for the prompt reply.
It's absolutely clear that Zen feed does not support 64-bit; that's why I posted my question.

I do not use optimizations or backtesting, NT is just for charting and live trading. So this mean that we put our money on this software.

In all these months when dealing with delays on feed or slow software on 6.5, the usual reply by the tech support is 'switch off the tick calculation', 'close that T&S' , 'use less windows inside the workspace', etc..

Now it appears that if this is the scenario with the NT7 32 bit, we should expects the same issues with fast markets and T&S windows locking up the PCs.. even under x64 OS?

[NinjaTrader_Josh]

Not sure what you mean. The same performance enhancing steps are applicable regardless of if you are using 32bit or 64bit; they are universal performance tips. The less work load you put on the system the more responsive it will be.

The base NT7 (32 or 64) already has considerable performance improvements over 6.5, but you should always utilize care in making sure your computer is not doing unnecessary calculations.

[paulg]

Not sure what you mean. [...]
The base NT7 (32 or 64) already has considerable performance improvements over 6.5. [...]

ok, I know less calculation means faster...so it's an 'universal rule'.

What I meant is: since we are forced to use the NT 7 32 bit with a Zenfire connection, is there any benefit about multithread/multicore management running the NT7 32 bit code under an x64 OS with quad-core CPU? :cool:

Am I wrong saying that the NT7 32 bit + Zenfire will lose all the advantages of multithread/multicore management, since these feature are available only using 64 bit software within x64 OS?

[NinjaTrader_Josh]

When running in 32-bit mode you would not be able to utilize the 64-bit mode features. Yes, this would be the case. This does not mean you will not be able to utilize multiple cores though. Just means you won't be able to utilize the memory architecture of 64-bit.

[paulg]

This does not mean you will not be able to utilize multiple cores though.

Excluding obviously the use of other software running concurrently on the other cores, do you mean the single-thread version of NT7 32 bit could run splitted over multiple cores..? :confused:


Just means you won't be able to utilize the memory architecture of 64-bit.


Are you referring to the .Net limitation to address about 1.5 Gb of memory to NT?

[NinjaTrader_Josh]

paulg,

Not sure what you are referring to. NT7 is multi-threaded regardless of 32-bit or 64-bit.

Yes, I am referring to memory limitations for 32-bit applications.

[forest]

Unfortunately there is no ETA on when ZenFire would support 64bit.

Then let's work on one. I am sure you have much on your plate, but find it difficult to imagine why you would not want one of the fastest data-feeds to take advantage of the fastest systems. It's the whole point isn't it?

[NinjaTrader_Josh]

forest,

Thank you for the post. It is on our list for the future, just no ETA for it yet.

[forest]

Glad that you replied Josh. I just wanted to let you know some of us out here would appreciate it.

[paulg]

paulg,

[...]

Yes, I am referring to memory limitations for 32-bit applications.

Memory limitations?

About the running the NT 7 32 bit under 64 bit OSes, please comment this post:
http://www.ninjatrader.com/support/forum/showpost.php?p=97664&postcount=24

Does this mean that even using NT 7 32 bit (because of Zen adapter limitation) under 64 bit OSes - without any other further manual switches - there will be better Ram management up to 2.5 Gb vs. the current 1.3 Gb limit? :confused:

[NinjaTrader_Dierk]

Which part of my post your link is referring to is unclear to you?

[NinjaTrader_Josh]

paulg,

I am not a hardware specialist, but my understanding is a 32-bit application will not be able to use more than the memory limitation of the x86 architecture, even on a 64-bit machine. The benefits of using a 32-bit application in a 64-bit machine over a 32-bit machine is that you are given full access to the max usable RAM for x86 and your 64-bit machine will still have enough RAM leftover for other things like your operating system and other applications. Whereas if you were on a 32-bit machine, you have to share 3-4GBs among everything from operating system, NinjaTrader, other applications.

[paulg]

Today (June 1) with the fast mkt on currencies, stocks and bonds we can see looking at the charts, I simply verified that NT7 beta 16 - running under Windows XP Pro SP2 XP64 with 4 Gb RAM @ 1333, CPU i7 860, 150 GB 10K RPM HD, with less than 25/35% CPU cores time involved and about 2 Gb free RAM - well crashed (stop responding) as usual as it happens running this software under XP Pro x86. Workspace is just 576 Kb and it includes globally 25 windows on 6/7 instruments.
Also NT7 locked the other applications running in background (Xtrader and Excel), making the PC totally unresponsive. No antivirus running. The software crashed and asked me to send the report, I did it.

Still wondering whether the Zenfire 32 bit connection cannot keep up with fast mkts or Ninja simply cannot keeps up with tick calculations. The same workspace usually locked (CPU cores at 99%) a dual-core CPU under XP Pro x86 with 4 Gb RAM but I hoped that an i7 CPU could change the situation. I was wrong and the hardware it's not a bottleneck now.

[NinjaTrader_Bertrand]

Paul, thanks for the report - which ticket number got assigned to your files and case sent in to support?

Thanks

[paulg]

Paul, thanks for the report - which ticket number got assigned to your files and case sent in to support?

Thanks

Bertrand, I did not open any ticket; simply pressed the Send Report button. Don't remember other details. Sorry :rolleyes:

[NinjaTrader_Kyle]

Hi paulg,

To clarify, was this the 'NinjaTrader has detected an error' message or a windows application termination error message?

[paulg]

Hi paulg,

To clarify, was this the 'NinjaTrader has detected an error' message or a windows application termination error message?
I think that it was the Windows error termination message; probably the message has been sent to MS when - with the application in a 'not responding status' - I clicked the NT7 close box. I still can't believe that such a workspace with some tick calculation is able to crash an i7 during a fast mkt. I was quite scared during those moments...all in all without a decent reliability I will be forced to virtualize NT7 within a VM; I cannot afford the risk to be worried for the lack of stability.

[NinjaTrader_Bertrand]

Hi Paul, can you please send me your trace and logs again to my Attn and then also include your workspaces used so I can investigate and try reproducing your scenario?

Thanks for your support.

[paulg]

Done!
Thank you,
Paul

[billy822]

Today (June 1) with the fast mkt on currencies, stocks and bonds we can see looking at the charts, I simply verified that NT7 beta 16 - running under Windows XP Pro SP2 XP64 with 4 Gb RAM @ 1333, CPU i7 860, 150 GB 10K RPM HD, with less than 25/35% CPU cores time involved and about 2 Gb free RAM - well crashed (stop responding) as usual as it happens running this software under XP Pro x86. Workspace is just 576 Kb and it includes globally 25 windows on 6/7 instruments.
Also NT7 locked the other applications running in background (Xtrader and Excel), making the PC totally unresponsive. No antivirus running. The software crashed and asked me to send the report, I did it.

Still wondering whether the Zenfire 32 bit connection cannot keep up with fast mkts or Ninja simply cannot keeps up with tick calculations. The same workspace usually locked (CPU cores at 99%) a dual-core CPU under XP Pro x86 with 4 Gb RAM but I hoped that an i7 CPU could change the situation. I was wrong and the hardware it's not a bottleneck now.

I hope Paul's NJ freezing issue was not caused by deadlocks in sql server. If it was, it might be difficult to fix without major redesign.

[paulg]

I hope Paul's NJ freezing issue was not caused by deadlocks in sql server. If it was, it might be difficult to fix without major redesign.

I'm not a programmer and don't use sql directly; I've simply deleted codes that caused a Log error iwth NT7 ; now let's wait a real fast mkt...meanwhile

[paulg]

I hope Paul's NJ freezing issue was not caused by deadlocks in sql server. If it was, it might be difficult to fix without major redesign.

I'm not a programmer and don't use sql directly; I've simply uninstalled indicators that caused a Log error on NT7 ; now let's wait a real fast mkt for a check...meanwhile I've virtualized NT7 beta 17 under a VMWare VM running XP Pro x64.

[NinjaTrader_Bertrand]

Thanks for the update Paul, please let me know how it goes for you after deleting the indicators which gave you issues.

[billy822]

I'm not a programmer and don't use sql directly; I've simply uninstalled indicators that caused a Log error on NT7 ; now let's wait a real fast mkt for a check...meanwhile I've virtualized NT7 beta 17 under a VMWare VM running XP Pro x64.


Paul:
My understanding was NJ 7 includes a sql server engine running in background to support NJ 7 process. If there are any issues related to sql server in NJ, only NJ developers or QA testers can identify and fix it. As end users there is nothing we can do . Thanks for bring up this issue. Please keep us posted.

[cashinvestor]

I run about 5 xp systems in vmware under Vista 64 with 12GB RAM on a Core i7. I rarely get any crashes with ninja 6.5. I'm not running any production type tools under ninja 7, so still mostly on 6.5. But I've got lots running - ninjatrader, metatrader, market delta, remote desktops, etc.

I would suggest to get off of XP 64. This is old code. Upgrade your base OS to Windows 7 64 and then run your vm's under that. I use vmware workstation 6.x right now, haven't upgraded to 7.0 yet. No problems.

[paulg]

[...]

I would suggest to get off of XP 64. This is old code. Upgrade your base OS to Windows 7 64 and then run your vm's under that. [...]

Anyone at Ninja Tech support could reply to this question, please:

- Is correct to think that running NT6.5 or NT 7 under Win7 X64 is better vs. XP Pro x64 SP2?

Thank you,
Paul

[NinjaTrader_Josh]

Paul,

Unfortunately we would not be able to answer that question of which is the better OS. You can find a lot of debate about this on Google. http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=windows+7+x64+vs+windows+xp+x64&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=12d854179172b838

The general consensus is that Win7 is much better than Vista. We have people using XP and 7 and are content with results from both. For that matter, many people do use Vista as well without any problems so ultimately it comes down to a personal choice which OS you would prefer.

[playafh69]

your better of with win 7

[paulg]

Josh,

Thanks for your reply.
But clearly my question concerned the ideal NT 6.5 / 7 environment , not a general disquisition about the best OS.
It's my understanding that XP Pro x64 SP2 has not nothing that could create slowness or bottlenecks win Ninja vs Win 7 X64 -- so not 'old code' ;)

[NinjaTrader_Bertrand]

Paul, I would go with the newer Win7 64 bit for various tests have shown you roughly get performance comparable to a clean XP but with more options / up to date driver support in the future.

[LG]

Paul, I would go with the newer Win7 64 bit for various tests have shown you roughly get performance comparable to a clean XP but with more options / up to date driver support in the future.

Is this still the case four months later (Oct 2010)?
My questions are actually:
1. should I use Win7 rather than WinXP (I think answer is yes)
2. should I use NT7 64bit rather than NT7 32bit for live trading (I think answer is no)

[NinjaTrader_Josh]

1. Yes. Either or will perform great.
2. If you have a 64-bit machine, by all means use 64-bit if your data provider supports 64-bit. If your data provider does not currently support 64-bit then you would need to use 32-bit.

[paulg]

1. Yes. Either or will perform great.
2. If you have a 64-bit machine, by all means use 64-bit if your data provider supports 64-bit. If your data provider does not currently support 64-bit then you would need to use 32-bit.

1. Is there any proof that Windows 7 x64 is better than XP Pro x64 running Ninja 7?
2. "by all means" would be correct if there are no issues, clearly; recently I had to give up using the Vision 64 bit under beta 22 and a ticket has been closed with the reply to wait for beta 23 for a solution.

[NinjaTrader_Bertrand]

Paul, unfortunately no hard 'proof' regarding OS choice we could offer - from personal experience and several tests read I would suggest Win7 64 bit if your hardware lineup is current and suitable drivers are supplied.

[paulg]

Paul, unfortunately no hard 'proof' regarding OS choice we could offer - from personal experience and several tests read I would suggest Win7 64 bit if your hardware lineup is current and suitable drivers are supplied.

Bertrand, I would be happy to install anything able to let NT7 to not crash ('not responding' even during a brief fast market). I have decent hardware and internet setup but now it seems the Windows OS is not able to fully manage the cores to run NT efficiently ("due to the nature of the Window OS, NinjaTrader 7 would not be able to fully use all available multi-cores/multi-processors at any given time").-..:rolleyes:

[NinjaTrader_Bertrand]

I guess I'm not sure I follow you - did we already review all pertinent info as this occurred on your end? For Windows thread management Win7 would be a good # of dev years ahead, so this should be your best performing choice.

[paulg]

I guess I'm not sure I follow you - did we already review all pertinent info as this occurred on your end? For Windows thread management Win7 would be a good # of dev years ahead, so this should be your best performing choice.

Bertrand, I've sent you an email re-opening an old ticket. thank you.

[DaveS]

Hmmm, just come upon this thread. I have been using more resourse demanding indicators recently and have encountered the 'charts freezing' behaviour, ( something I left Tradestation to get away from ). I have been running NT on a P4, 6 years old.
So, over the weekend I ordered parts for a new high end machine, and Win 7 pro, to go fast and 64 bit.
Its very disapointing to find that although the data feed I use has a 64 bit version, I won't be able to use it and moreover, NT don't even have it in their program to make it available.
I don't know how many NT users are also ZenFire users and I'm sure NT won't tell me, but I'm also sure the percentage must be quite high. Do it NT!

[dave1992]

It is supported now and has been for a while now.

[NinjaTrader_Bertrand]

Hmmm, just come upon this thread. I have been using more resourse demanding indicators recently and have encountered the 'charts freezing' behaviour, ( something I left Tradestation to get away from ). I have been running NT on a P4, 6 years old.
So, over the weekend I ordered parts for a new high end machine, and Win 7 pro, to go fast and 64 bit.
Its very disapointing to find that although the data feed I use has a 64 bit version, I won't be able to use it and moreover, NT don't even have it in their program to make it available.
I don't know how many NT users are also ZenFire users and I'm sure NT won't tell me, but I'm also sure the percentage must be quite high. Do it NT!

Dave, please ensure you're on Beta 21 or later to have access to the ZenFire 64 bit adapter in beta mode - http://www.ninjatrader.com/support/forum/showthread.php?t=22484

[DaveS]

Sorry, abject apologies due and offered. I did have a look round but did not find anything to the effect that it is now available.