So, when can we expect v7 beta?

[NetTecture]

I am scheduled to start trading with Mirus Futures in about 2 weeks ;) And dont really want to get into Ninja 6.5 - based on a plenthora of not too good experiences in the past ;)

So ;) How long will I have to play with the not for pay version of 6.5 (i.e. no live trading) until I can get my hands on a beta of 7.0?

;)

[NinjaTrader_Dierk]

Nothing has changed in that regard: First public beta of NT7 is scheduled for end of Q2 09. However, we never recommend using beta for live trading. Unfortunately there is no ETA yet on when first non-beta release would be available yet.

[NetTecture]

Nothing has changed in that regard: First public beta of NT7 is scheduled for end of Q2 09. However, we never recommend using beta for live trading.

So we can count down for a maximum of one month then ;) Thanks.

[NinjaTrader_Dierk]

Not sure about your "one month" math, but reviewing the beta periods of past NinjaTrader versions (please see the relevant section in help guide) will provide you an estimate on how long beta phases usually go.

[NetTecture]

Not sure about your "one month" math, but reviewing the beta periods of past NinjaTrader versions (please see the relevant section in help guide) will provide you an estimate on how long beta phases usually go.

Well, remember I was not saying "beta finished", but count to beta start.

And one month is easy, math wise.

It is now the last day of Mai. Q2 ends last day of June, which is - in pretty exactly one month.

So, according to your statement we should have access to a public version of N7 in beta quality in a maximum of exactly one month, otherwise... the Q2 timeline did not hold.

[NinjaTrader_Dierk]

Please review my post below: We do not recommend using a beta for live trading (which I understand is what you wanted to do: "to start trading with Mirus Futures in about 2 weeks").

[NetTecture]

Please review my post below: We do not recommend using a beta for live trading (which I understand is what you wanted to do).

Well, technically... I will have about 1-2 months of preparation before entering a real trade ANYWAY, so the recommendation sort of does not hit me ;)

I need to get used and comfortable with the platform for discretionary trading (so it is "life trading" with the sim account for some weeks), so I dont make stupid errors when the time comes.

And for automated stuff a lot of things need to be programmed.

I am more eager to...
* Start the journey
* Decide whether to go this way or do myself.

NT 6.5 does not hit me in the "professional and well designed" area good enough to be bearable, so my hopes go with all the good things supposedly coming with NT7.

Life trading is still a little away anyway ;)

[NinjaTrader_Dierk]

Not sure what issues you have in mind as you state NT6.5 would not hit in the "professional and well designed area" for your discretionary trading. May be you can elaborate a bit so we better understand what actually holds you off using NR6.5 for your discretionary trading preparation.

[NetTecture]

Not sure what issues you have in mind as you state NT6.5 would not hit in the "professional and well designed area" for your discretionary trading. May be you can elaborate a bit so we better understand what actually holds you off using NR6.5 for your discretionary trading preparation.

Well, NT6.5 is holding me back in MANY areas...

...without going into the details, it starts with being so well designed it can not be installed on a computer with a redirected documents folder, as the installer crashes. That alone is a show-stopper. Obviously noone ever tested that.

Continuing with the joy of having it freeze regularly.

Single threaded, bad database storage technology internally, all things you supposedly fix soonish.

A C# integration that makes me - hm - want you to use another langauge (because I love C#), with no support provided for developing strategies in Visual Studio.

My hope is with 7. I really hope a lot of things get fixed up there ;)

[ctrlbrk]

NT 6.5 has many problems.

However, C# is not one of them.

It may be true that the implementation of .NET is out of date but it is still well beyond what the competition offers. And NT7 is already confirmed to be built on .NET 3.5, bringing further enhancement.

So, while I agree with you on many of your complaints about NT 6.5 and I've certainly voiced my displeasure with more than a few things... I completely disagree with the C# statement and feel the need to come to the Ninja team's defense. :)

Have a good weekend!
Mike

[NinjaTrader_Dierk]

Unfortunately you did not provide details on what actually stops you using NT for your discretionary trading.

Anyway:
- your statement about NT being single threaded is incorrect. NT6.5 is multi threaded, however there are more areas where multi-threading could be applied which we're doing with NT7
- I don't follow your statement "with a redirected documents folder, as the installer crashes". The installer allows to configure the installation folder for program files (which should not be touched/changed accordingly Windows guidelines). The <my documents> folder holds your personal data(again, according windows guidelines) and is not configurable by the installer, thus the installer could not crash on it.
- not sure what you mean by "database storage internally"
- could you please provide scenarios where NT froze on you as you traded discretionary? Thanks

[NetTecture]

You get something REALLY wrong here ;)

I am absolutly not dissatisfied by NT 6.5 being C# - in general, I think it is a perfect langauge for that. I am absolutly displeased by what NT 6.5 DOES in it's system development WITH C#. In an attempt to be as easy to use as possibly, I think the possibilities of the .NET Framework are basically destroyed, mostly. Examples?

* No proper development environment. Give me back my breakpoints, source control etc. And add some things (like a time based breakpoint - allow me to mark a bar, rerun the strategy and get me into the debugger once THAT BAR is being executed).
* No way to have precompiled strategies in dll's. In fact, no way to acutally use a "proper" .net development environment.
* No way to actually use obect orientation - thanks to a "one class" approach. Including no supported approach to use tool libraries (i.e. libraries with simply parts of strategies that may be usefull).

I wish NT would cater a lot more towards a more professional oriented developer.

I really hope NT 7 goes a longer way towards being more powerfull ;)

But I am by no means complaining about the use of C# in general. It is a wonderfull langauge, on top of a really good runtime.

[NetTecture]

- I don't follow your statement "with a redirected documents folder, as the installer crashes". The installer allows to configure the installation folder for program files (which should not be touched/changed accordingly Windows guidelines). The <my documents> folder holds your personal data(again, according windows guidelines) and is not configurable by the installer, thus the installer could not crash on it.

Try installing on a computer with a redirected documents folder.

Folder redirection for personal folders to network locations is a standard feature provided and exposed by group policies. Basically an admin can say "that guys personal data goes on the following network location".

If you try installing NT 6.5 on a computer in an account with redirected folders (which is standard on all my computers so personal data is centrally stored on a location that is backed up and available from all computers that I work on), the installer blows. It is mostly through the install, and uninstallation is also not possible anymore - the installer blows. Point. I can provide you with a screenshot. I am upgrading one of my computers to WIndows 7 anyway the next days, then I can blow it up by installing Ninja Trader 6.5 on it to make a screenshot ;)

Whatever program you call in there just can not handle setup in a path that starts with "\\" - as it is as the documents folder is on a network share. And as I prefer to have my data on a "safe" location (i.e. workstaiotns run with one disc, all user data is stored on a server).

Note that folder redirection is not an "in the installer" feature, it is a setup / configuration one sets up for the user account. Through group policies. NT 6.5 handles that badly.

I suggest reading:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/232692
http://www.detector-pro.com/2009/04/windows-tip-network-folder-redirection.html

- not sure what you mean by "database storage internally"

Your internal usage of - hm - did I get that right and it is the jet-engine, retired... hm... around... many years ago? For beng - hm - known to - hm - have issues ;) I did read some comments here that it will be replaced with SQL Server embedded.

could you please provide scenarios where NT froze on you as you traded discretionary? Thanks

Well, try letting it run with a dozen strategies for some days... freezes. Memory issues are very well documented - don't tell me YOU don't know them. Now, this is not "discretionary", but it makes it unusable, too. I dont like running on potentially unstable software while in risky positions. Which means in order to be stable in general, I have to regularly restart. THat is so - hm - 1995 ;) Btw., tihe integration strategy/discretionary just is terrible - one has really to be carefull not to get in the way of autoamted trades when doing discretionary trading. But then, this is a tricky area ;) And I can live with that - enough markets to split them.

[NinjaTrader_Dierk]

Unfortunately folder redirection is not on the list of supported features. NT6.5 is installed by the standard Microsoft installer MSI.
May be this information is of value for your endeavor: http://www.ninjatrader-support2.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2441

On C#:
- you can integrate a pre-compiled assembly by right click in NS editor->References
- we currently don't have any plans to provide a different development environment than the one we're having with NT6.5 right now
- however, users managed to use VisualStudio as development environment (not officially supported though)
- the documentation holds info on how to debug NinjaScript using VisualStudio http://www.ninjatrader-support.com/HelpGuideV6/VisualStudio.html

[KBJ]

- the documentation holds info on how to debug NinjaScript using VisualStudio http://www.ninjatrader-support.com/HelpGuideV6/VisualStudio.html

And the VisualStudio debugging works quite nicely for strategies as well as for indicators.

One thing that I've noticed that should be noted in the above referenced documentation (before step #3), is that after first attaching VisualStudio to NinjaTrader, you won't be able to set breakpoints until after something has been actually been compiled (and this compile step needs to be redone each time NinjaTrader or VisualStudio is restarted.)

[NinjaTrader_Ben]

Hello,

Thank you. I will send this to the appropriate people and they will consider your change.

[NetTecture]

Unfortunately folder redirection is not on the list of supported features. NT6.5 is installed by the standard Microsoft installer MSI.
May be this information is of value for your endeavor: http://www.ninjatrader-support2.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2441

On C#:
- you can integrate a pre-compiled assembly by right click in NS editor->References
- we currently don't have any plans to provide a different development environment than the one we're having with NT6.5 right now
- however, users managed to use VisualStudio as development environment (not officially supported though)
- the documentation holds info on how to debug NinjaScript using VisualStudio http://www.ninjatrader-support.com/HelpGuideV6/VisualStudio.html

Le's go into it at the start. The link for folder redirection is crap. Sorry.

* It is a standard windows feature, you are supposed to deal with it. Not the user. This is exactly what I meant when I said it is not up to my standard.
* The Information provided is wrong, the behavior was changed with .NET 3.5 SP1 because it made no sense to start with (and MS did realize). More info on that is in: http://blogs.msdn.com/vancem/archive/2008/08/13/net-framework-3-5-sp1-allows-managed-code-to-be-launched-from-a-network-share.aspx
* Part of the problem if obviously that you do have a custom action in the MSI installer that simply is written in such a way that it breaks. Point. That is bad programming. Professional software written for a professional area (and we can all not really argue that you are dealing in a sensitive area) should follow the guidelines set forth for the operating system. You should be good enough to get a wíndows compatibility logo. Guess what - proper installer / uninstaller actions and support for redirected folders are on the list for that.
* Even if that would be a security issue, your installer should take care of that. What is the most idiotic part here is not even that it does not work, but that it does not finish install AND BLOCKS UNINSTALL. This is buggy code. Fix it, don't argue about not being supported. If one needs to change security settings, then by god show a warning at the end, but make sure your custom action DOES NOT CRASH.

For Visual Studio - well, the main problem I have with that is that it is not supported. Now, I am willing to risk working with beta software for some time, but I am not willing to work with a non-supported setup for development ;) If NT7 is good enough in all other regards, though, and someone can document how to change a config to another computer (so I do not need to install Visual Studio in my real trading computer) I may give it a try.

Too bad, btw., that you do not base NT on MEF - would be a perfect application for that ;)

[NinjaTrader_Dierk]

>> Part of the problem if obviously that you do have a custom action in the MSI installer that simply is written in such a way that it breaks
Your statement is incorrect. There is no custom action in the installer. It's all standard MSI. Please contact Microsoft if you feel MSI is not working as it should.

The link you provided suggests that Microsoft fixed a security policy issue with .NET 3.5 SP1. Thus, it might make sense if you retried your endeavor with NT7 which is based on .NET 3.5.

Also, please see my post below: nothing will change with NT7 in regards to VisualStudio support/usage.

[NetTecture]

>> Part of the problem if obviously that you do have a custom action in the MSI installer that simply is written in such a way that it breaks
Your statement is incorrect. There is no custom action in the installer. It's all standard MSI. Please contact Microsoft if you feel MSI is not working as it should.

The link you provided suggests that Microsoft fixed a security policy issue with .NET 3.5 SP1. Thus, it might make sense if you retried your endeavor with NT7 which is based on .NET 3.5.

Also, please see my post below: nothing will change with NT7 in regards to VisualStudio support/usage.

Well, I have some good news. I can confirm that it works now with NT 6.5 (install that is, with folder redirection). I had last tried with build 9, now I downloaded and tried build 10 - and it does not crash anymore. At least that was fixed.

On other hands, as I said originally... I look forward for the NT7 beta to come out. I see little sense in even trying to put too much work in 6.5, especially given the time issues at hand (i.e. me having to feel comfortable and moving quite a number of things over to it - which the get retired in favour of NT7).

Last point - any significant changes in the instrument manager? I Mean, like... it hooking up to a web service of yours and automatically pulling in and maintaining all symbols? ;)

[NinjaTrader_Dierk]

Thanks for your feedback. The installer was not changed since NT6.5.1000.1 (> 12 months).

We will provide details on NT7 as we roll first public beta.